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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2012-07-23

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Time Nick Message
01:09 GTRsdk joined #minetest-dev
01:58 celeron55 http://paste.dy.fi/EDT
01:58 celeron55 i have created a beast
02:01 VanessaE this is test-loading old worlds?
02:01 VanessaE looks good to me, I think :-)
02:02 VanessaE *looks at clock*...  why are you still up?
02:02 celeron55 because.
02:08 celeron55 https://github.com/celeron55/minetest-worldtest
02:08 celeron55 it's a fucking WORK OF ART!
02:09 celeron55 it just needs 0.3 to be added
02:10 celeron55 somebody could look at the patches in rules.d/$tag/ and make the same thing happen
02:10 VanessaE this is genius.  Nice.
02:13 celeron55 the patches are supposed to modify the minetest server to do exactly three things: 1) load all the MapBlocks touching (0,0,0), 2) after loading, read nodes and check if they are correctly set; print a line starting with GOOD: and a line starting with BAD: to a new file worldtest_result.txt for each test, 3) set the nodes in the certain formation
02:13 celeron55 and 4) quit
02:14 celeron55 s/and a line/or a line/
02:33 * VanessaE grumbles at a minecrafter in -delta.
02:51 VanessaE (one of those "c55 needs to implement feature X" to make the game better, but without being able to say why, other than that he wants it)
02:54 celeron55 i fully acknowledge minetest looks like shit compared to today's standards
02:54 celeron55 but today's standards don't run on eg. my laptop
02:55 VanessaE heh, this guy wants more than "doesn'
02:56 VanessaE heh, this guy wants more than "doesn't look like shit".  But what he wants is stupid like particles by default (why?), some vignette thing, mountains that 'glow' (huh?)
02:56 VanessaE stuff that even I would agree is mostly useless (and I use the particles mod, go figure)
02:56 celeron55 anything visual is kind of useless
02:56 VanessaE exactly.
02:57 VanessaE eye candy is nice but not if it gets in the way of the game actually working.
03:03 VanessaE either way, I've asked him repeatedly to post these things on github.  he insists it's pointless because he assumes you will react negatively.
03:06 VanessaE what should I tell him, to that end?
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03:09 celeron55 according to minetest-worldtest, darkrose's node timers and 16-bit content parameters can load data saved by itself and data saved by previous versions
03:09 celeron55 dunno if this really proves anything though, i don't know if anything that might break anything is used
03:12 VanessaE well you kinda said it already, it proves it can reload what it saves :-)
03:13 VanessaE which, really, is as important as any other part of the program
03:15 celeron55 ehm
03:16 celeron55 well yes, but it tries to save and load only a small subset of what it should be able to
03:16 VanessaE true.
03:16 celeron55 also, that test does not extend to the earliest version that needs to be supported
03:16 celeron55 that is, 0.3.x
03:16 VanessaE consider this an "initial smoke test".
03:16 VanessaE right, I assumed so
03:17 celeron55 by a quick look at the code it looks like it will explode horribly when stuff made by 0.3 is fed to it 8)
03:18 VanessaE haha
03:18 VanessaE wouldn't be the first time that's happened ;-)
03:20 VanessaE "Yeah, officer.  I tried to load an 0.3 map with this newer game and pray to the FSM everything went nuts.  Oh the humanity - mapblocks all over the road, nodes hanging from trees...  I mean hell, look at my car - it's permanently covered in desert stone now."
03:20 VanessaE :D
03:33 VanessaE . o O ( Jeez, what do I have to do to get ol' sourpuss here to laugh? )
03:59 celeron55 https://github.com/celeron55/minetest-worldtest
03:59 celeron55 pushed working rule for 0.3.1
03:59 VanessaE cool
03:59 celeron55 http://paste.dy.fi/EMy
04:00 celeron55 and it catched what i saw in the code 8)
04:03 celeron55 hmm... some pre-sqlite 0.2 would be interesting
04:03 celeron55 8D
04:03 celeron55 i bet that wouldn't work
04:03 celeron55 the code is there, but it's likely broken
04:57 celeron55 == master returns all good for world generated by 0.3.1
04:59 VanessaE yay \o/ :-)
05:11 celeron55 http://c55.me/random/2012-07/minetest-worldtest-testcase.png
05:11 celeron55 that is the test case
05:13 celeron55 3x5x3 box made of nyan cats, having a torch at the top, a glass block at the middle and air at the bottom, in such a way that the air is at 0,0,0; and there is a sign at the black node at 0,0,2
05:13 celeron55 the text of the sign is "Foo Bar"
05:14 VanessaE looks good
05:29 celeron55 i... guess i can push this upstream
05:30 VanessaE careful,
05:30 celeron55 it's network incompatible with 0.4.1 and 0.4.1 cannot open it's save files
05:30 VanessaE this is darkrose's 16-bitr node ID part......right, you already got that in mind then
05:31 celeron55 anyone who wants to just play the game can just use the stable branch
05:31 VanessaE right
05:31 VanessaE is there any way at all to work in network compat at least?
05:32 celeron55 no
05:33 VanessaE too bad.  well if that'
05:33 celeron55 there is always a way but this time it consists of too much duct tape
05:33 VanessaE that's how it has to be, so be it.
05:49 celeron55 ->
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10:13 Nemo08 hi!
10:13 VanessaE hi
10:14 darkrose stfu
10:14 VanessaE this channel is strictly for the purpose of discussing the minetest engine core, general chit-chat is frowned upon strongly here.
10:19 Nemo08 hm
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15:22 sfan5 i fixed my pull request: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/pull/163#issuecomment-7176669
15:46 celeron55 i made this http://paste.dy.fi/67m
15:46 celeron55 but i am not sure if it is good
15:46 celeron55 i was thinking of the way the snow mod needs to rework the place where nodes actually go when placed on snow
15:48 celeron55 an another solution would be a group or a field that just says "place inside of me"; that the client could also predict
15:49 jordach well, thinking about what you just said: buildable_to = true does this i think?
15:49 celeron55 ...NO.
15:50 celeron55 as if i would be doing anything like this if the functionality existed
15:51 celeron55 i feel 90% desire to kick you becaue of that; anyone who knows anything about minetest can directly say it's not what this is about
15:51 celeron55 +s
16:02 celeron55 ...it kind of _maybe_ could be made to work that way, but i don't know how large a bunch of things it would affect
16:06 celeron55 that is, if a node has buildable_to = true and a node is placed on it, the node will go in place of the node rather than on the side that was clicked (buildable_to is set basically for air, water and stuff like that; the problem here is that snow is buildable_to *but also* pointable)
16:06 celeron55 it could work, but then does there exist a callback for eg. custom drops or effects in that situation
16:10 celeron55 if the minetest.register_on_placenode callback had the old node as the fourth parameter, that would suit the need... kind of
16:13 celeron55 i think that actually is the way to go
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17:46 celeron55 done
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19:43 VanessaE joined #minetest-dev
20:23 celeron55 oh god
20:23 celeron55 i am making a list of useful mods
20:23 VanessaE uh oh
20:23 VanessaE define "useful" :-)
20:23 celeron55 there are things from like half a year ago that still work perfectly 8)
20:27 VanessaE using with you likely define as "useful", and given what features you've recently added, I would suggest animatedtorches, nature_pack, doorsplus, drippingwater, junglegrass (unless you re-implement jungle biomes), locked_sign, and stairsplus
20:27 VanessaE all are lightweight, and don't seem to affect performace.
20:27 VanessaE +n
20:28 VanessaE unifieddyes would be in that list too but we've already covered that for now.
20:35 celeron55 the main thing that comes to mind is that what kind of a beast this'd make if all of these were put together
20:35 VanessaE well,
20:36 VanessaE I run all of those plus a bunch more, and the only time I see a performance drop is one of them runs some big CPU-hog of an ABM
20:37 VanessaE but I'm not exactly running low-end hardware, so you'd obviously have to evaluate it on your laptop also
20:39 VanessaE particles is nice also, but I have no idea what kind of performance impact that one will have on low-end hardware.  on my machine, no impact that I can see.
20:39 VanessaE (yes, that one's less than 'useful')
20:40 celeron55 my laptop is basically a 15" sized netbook with a 1600x1200 pixel screen
20:40 celeron55 the GPU seriously struggles to run minetest 8)
20:40 VanessaE 16x12?  damn.  beats the pathetic little thing I have :-)
20:40 VanessaE (I want to say 1320x768?)
20:41 celeron55 i had 1024x768, but upgraded a few weeks ago
20:41 celeron55 i actually bought a version of this same laptop with an ATI GPU, but it made too much heat and fan noise
20:41 celeron55 so i just threw the screen to this old one
20:41 VanessaE that said, I run a pair of 1280x1024 displays off an ATI HD6870 video card on my desktop machine, so it's no slouch ;-)
20:43 VanessaE re: the mods you're looking into...  what's your immediate goal with them?
20:43 VanessaE (versus the long-term goal of minetest in general)
20:44 celeron55 is there an up-to-date trapdoor anywhere
20:44 celeron55 or hatch
20:44 celeron55 whatever
20:45 celeron55 there is this, but it's... a fairly bit old http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=609
20:45 celeron55 -ly
20:46 VanessaE hm, a hatch...good question
20:46 celeron55 http://minetest.net/play.php
20:46 celeron55 i probably need to rework the layout a bit 8)
20:46 VanessaE my tex pack supports that mod but I haven't actually tried to use it
20:47 VanessaE let's see what happens....
20:48 VanessaE well 0.4.1 doesn't crash with it anyway...
20:49 VanessaE eh, it sorta works
20:50 VanessaE I can craft a hatch, and place it, but on punch it just rises or lowers, but doesn't actually flip open/closed like it's supposed to.
20:50 VanessaE and I can't dig it up because it moves out of the way
20:51 VanessaE so that's a no-go for now
20:51 celeron55 you probably can't dig it anyway, because it uses the pre-group digging properties
20:51 VanessaE ah, that figures
20:52 celeron55 otherwise i'd think it would work
20:52 celeron55 well, whatever
20:52 VanessaE wait, I didn't try this patch.
20:52 jordach joined #minetest-dev
20:54 VanessaE er, that probably won't help.
20:54 VanessaE but I'll try anyway, I have nothing better to do ;-)
20:55 VanessaE haha.  definitely not
20:56 VanessaE screw it.  :-)
20:56 jordach celeron55, can you remove my Wool and Panes please?
20:57 celeron55 is there any particular reason? (it doesn't matter, but i am interested)
20:58 jordach yes, i have stopped supporting them, since the dyes i used were common blocks, and not a de facto mod standard
20:58 celeron55 we don't have a de facto mod standard for dyes
20:58 celeron55 well, maybe de facto
20:58 jordach replace with this http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2373
20:59 jordach thank you
20:59 * VanessaE gives celeron55 oxygen
21:02 celeron55 i don't like the looks of those at all
21:04 celeron55 also, i don't think i will support the full unified dyes mod
21:04 VanessaE :(
21:04 jordach my mod supports all of the colours con-currently
21:04 celeron55 yes and that is why it sucks
21:05 celeron55 better have few good looking ones than 100 bad looking
21:05 jordach ah
21:05 jordach blame gentextures.sh
21:05 celeron55 it just feels so mechanically made, and there is nothing to help it
21:06 VanessaE he used an older version of the gentextures script that lacked the tinted overlay method
21:08 VanessaE http://i.imgur.com/0U8YA.png
21:08 VanessaE c55, is that any better?  ^^
21:08 celeron55 horrible.
21:08 VanessaE :(
21:09 celeron55 i see i need to make the dye mod next
21:09 VanessaE noooooooooo
21:09 jordach good.
21:09 jordach im for this
21:09 jordach 16 colours at best
21:09 celeron55 jordach better keep keep his wool and panes around, i will use the exact same colors, with NO extra shades of any kind
21:10 jordach ok ok
21:10 jordach you win
21:10 jordach however, i might make it so unified dyes and your dyes work in sync
21:11 VanessaE c55: well at least do everyone a favor?  use the same modname, so I can just rework mine to act as an 'extension' pack or something
21:11 VanessaE that way existing mods don't break
21:12 celeron55 no, it will be just "dyes", because if i will have an included dye mod for all of the known future, nothing else suffices
21:14 jordach are we going to use the colours from my old wool mod?
21:14 celeron55 i don't see any reason to not do that
21:15 jordach because i noticed most servers use the old wool mod (16)
21:16 VanessaE celeron55: I think implementing your own is a bad idea to be honest
21:16 celeron55 jordach: ?
21:17 jordach most servers today run a very old version of my wool, most notably, the 16 colour version.
21:17 celeron55 can you link to it?
21:17 jordach yes sure
21:18 jordach http://www.mediafire.com/?d9nzvn12xmf2i2r
21:18 jordach and complimentary image http://i.imgur.com/OmlIN.png
21:21 celeron55 hmm, those colors seem a bit random
21:23 celeron55 jordach: in how wide use you think that is?
21:24 jordach mainstream servers
21:24 jordach menche
21:24 jordach redcrab 0.4.1
21:24 jordach pixel art
21:25 jordach http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=29195#p29195
21:25 jordach (modified version)
21:25 jordach sdzens server
21:26 celeron55 how much do you think the lesser coloured version is used?
21:27 jordach 11 none from what ive seen
21:27 jordach and sdzen pushes 16 hard http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/1540/screenshot113753755.png
21:28 celeron55 i don't see why i wouldn't be going with that then
21:29 celeron55 the colors are a bit oddly chosen but i guess it just adds character to the game 8)
21:29 VanessaE ...
21:29 jordach i attempted to bring (some) sort of balance
21:30 jordach and the before wool http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1012
21:31 celeron55 there is no widely used dye mod, right?
21:31 jordach id say 50/50
21:31 VanessaE I'd say half the mods that need dyes use mine, the others implement their own system
21:32 celeron55 hmm
21:32 VanessaE but mine's fairly new so it hasn't had time to gain a lot of traction yet
21:32 celeron55 i recall there is a flowers mod somewhere
21:32 jordach flowers mod is around, broken and slow (spawning)
21:32 VanessaE yes, http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=518
21:33 VanessaE nature_pack supplies a purportedly upgraded version of it
21:33 jordach yes it does
21:58 VanessaE celeron55: I feel the need to point out two things.  1, and I've said this before: you should not limit others' creativity.  2, if you provide only a few colors, you are limiting other modders' choices to just those, even if other colors are needed.
21:59 VanessaE whereas if you provide a lot of colors, modders can choose exactly the ones they need, even if they only end up using half a dozen unique colored objects in their mod.
21:59 VanessaE (the existence of a wide palette does not imply the need to utilse every color provided by it)
21:59 VanessaE +i
22:00 celeron55 having a million colors makes it impossible for players to just randomly mix them together and then expect to be able to color stuff with them
22:00 VanessaE eh?
22:00 sfan5 joined #minetest-dev
22:00 VanessaE that makes no sense
22:00 jordach i agree
22:01 jordach a million colours can give choice, but mixing any two out of that million might now have a result
22:01 jordach s/now/not
22:01 VanessaE that might be true if the mod didn't already cover that issue
22:02 jordach and theres the problem with yours
22:02 jordach MC has these limits
22:02 VanessaE unifieddyes already accounts for mixing colors
22:02 celeron55 you can make an extended dyes mod for those who need it
22:02 celeron55 the core game has core stuff.
22:02 VanessaE that's how everything beyond the full ones works.
22:02 jordach celeron55, i compiled my own texture, with gimp then with gentextures.sh, which returned these two images (light colours have no half saturation) http://imgur.com/a/ZNjgl
22:02 VanessaE <celeron55> horrible.
22:02 jordach go on check them
22:02 VanessaE ;)
22:03 sfan5 celeron55: what about merging my pulk now?
22:03 sfan5 *pull
22:04 VanessaE celeron55: You do realize all my mod does is provide a bunch of craft items, right?
22:05 celeron55 i want to have dyes that players can memorize and that can have interesting ways of collecting them
22:05 celeron55 remember, SURVIVAL.
22:06 VanessaE right
22:06 VanessaE and what's so hard about remembering mind?
22:06 VanessaE red, orange, yellow....?
22:06 VanessaE mine*
22:06 jordach for a start
22:06 VanessaE collecting them is another matter of course
22:06 jordach remove, lime, redviolet and skyblue
22:06 VanessaE jordach: no - that breaks the color wheel
22:07 jordach three colours that are almost the same as the others
22:07 jordach VanessaE, this is the point
22:07 VanessaE all 12 base colors are on a 30 degree rotation from red
22:07 VanessaE it's mathematically exact
22:07 jordach i give up with the dyes
22:07 jordach celeron want this simple
22:07 jordach not everything
22:08 jordach ask yourself this: would you craft every single colour in there? no, you'd probably use /giveme
22:08 VanessaE why would I want to craft every last color?
22:08 VanessaE that's not the point at all
22:09 jordach im looking from the player here
22:09 jordach because.
22:09 VanessaE the formula is dead simple even for the biggest idiot players :-)
22:09 jordach they might want ONE hard to reach colour
22:09 jordach for their block
22:09 jordach and getting 7-8 dyes for that one block is madness
22:09 VanessaE name it.
22:09 VanessaE WRONG!!!!
22:09 VanessaE try three dyes, tops.
22:10 VanessaE a base color, black, and white.
22:10 VanessaE that's all you need to construct any other color in the palette.
22:10 jordach you missed your half sats
22:10 celeron55 VanessaE: don't you undestand? like "oh awesome, you've got dark green, you can only get that by killing X and being through Y with item Z"
22:10 VanessaE celeron55: I understand NOW, you never said that part before.
22:11 jordach im with celeron, too many items = too much time wasted
22:12 VanessaE but in the case of unifieddyes, it's easy.  stone, junglegrass, one or two flowers, coal, and if you want desaturated colors, you'll need iron too.
22:12 jordach see
22:12 VanessaE (iron to make a bucket, for water)
22:12 jordach problem
22:12 jordach that bucket which equates to 3 iron ingots, which are rare, require 8 cobble, and one coal lump
22:13 celeron55 i am not making a paint program, i am making a game
22:13 jordach and the water source, which there might not be any
22:13 VanessaE celeron55: you're limiting creativity.
22:13 celeron55 if somebody wants to make a paint program of it, they can always make independent mods
22:13 sfan5 i never get an answer to my qeustion
22:13 jordach im going to sit in the corner now, this has gone too far
22:13 VanessaE but I get your point.
22:13 sfan5 >.<
22:13 celeron55 limiting creativity? so what?
22:13 jordach the engine must
22:14 jordach have a simple yet good balance*
22:14 VanessaE because you yourself said one should "leave all creative decisions to me"
22:14 VanessaE or words to that effect
22:14 VanessaE that's a major FAIL
22:14 celeron55 i am BALANCING A GAME FOR THE FUTURE
22:14 VanessaE you've made a wonderful game.
22:15 jordach i give up on this dye thing
22:15 VanessaE ok, you know what?  I give up.  you're not going to listen.
22:15 celeron55 i know your point, and you know my point
22:16 VanessaE fair enough.
22:16 jordach i think our problem here is the two opposing sides, one wants EVERYTHING in a nutshell, and the other wants something that WORKS
22:16 celeron55 no
22:17 celeron55 in a nutshell: VanessaE wants a creative sandbox; i want a balanced game
22:17 VanessaE celeron55: wrong.
22:17 VanessaE that's not what I want
22:17 jordach bias is in everything
22:18 jordach thats our problem
22:18 VanessaE what I want is for the player - or rather the *modder* - to have enough options that they don't *have* to go looking for another, and another, and yet another addon, at least in this case
22:18 celeron55 i can tell you a secret: if a dye has color #aa7700, the color your item gets from it doesn't need to be #aa7700
22:19 VanessaE of course not - but it needs to be *logical*
22:19 celeron55 any amount of colors give room to be logical
22:19 VanessaE ok,
22:19 VanessaE from jordach's 32-color set,
22:19 jordach bleh
22:20 VanessaE how would you get a nice, pale blue bundle of wool?  Nevermind what it'll be used for.
22:20 jordach huh, sorry VanessaE, but what you just said gave me an excellent idea
22:21 jordach i never thought about it like that
22:21 VanessaE you'd either have to:
22:21 VanessaE 1, craft a white block and some straight blue dye to make blue block, then craft that with a couple of white blocks
22:21 VanessaE +a
22:21 VanessaE or 2, craft blue and white dyes and add the result to a white block.
22:22 celeron55 i DO NOT want to have more core dye colors than that which anything colorable can support, because it's fucking lame if you tweak a perfect color, then color something with it and instead of your exact pale blue it gets colored blue
22:22 jordach how i mixed the wool (white + blue) would create 2 light blues, because, you strained half of the blue colour, into the other block, so that gives logic its balance, plus difficulty, because they cannot be returned to their previous colour
22:23 celeron55 maybe there should be a color enhancer dye, a darkener dye and a lightener dye that can be supported by items as an extra thing after the core dyeing if they wish to have a million colors
22:23 jordach so lets say we have 6 central colours
22:23 jordach bobblocks does this
22:23 jordach and we want a VARIANT
22:24 * VanessaE grumbles
22:24 jordach so we, (player/modder) must make that themselves
22:24 VanessaE did either of you read the standard I published on this?  it's all there in the parent post
22:24 VanessaE if a modder gets stupid and strays from the standard, it'll be no different whether you have 12 base colors or 2.
22:25 VanessaE but, do whatever you want I guess
22:26 jordach i think roygbiv should be the standard
22:26 jordach http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_G._Biv
22:26 celeron55 i hate it how you constantly approach this like an image manipulation program
22:27 * VanessaE shrugs
22:27 jordach i guess we are over thinking this
22:29 jordach lets go to the start of this
22:29 jordach <celeron55> jordach better keep keep his wool and panes around, i will use the exact same colors, with NO extra shades of any kind
22:29 jordach and that should have stayed there
22:30 celeron55 no, i'm going with the one being used on servers
22:30 jordach my 16 engine?
22:30 celeron55 .
22:32 jordach sorry about that, spaced for a second. so the mod i coded (on a broken laptop,) is actually the most balanced?
22:33 celeron55 it isn't, but that is the catch of it
22:33 celeron55 it's always interesting to base things on stuff that occurred by chance
22:33 jordach so, its hit the target target, but in the wrong place for a kill?
22:34 jordach 50/50 in other words
22:35 jordach left #minetest-dev
22:44 celeron55 hmm, this night started with a nice feeling, and stopped with crap
22:50 VanessaE sorry to bring you down like that
22:51 celeron55 there is one color in this set that just can't be a dye
22:52 celeron55 gold.
22:52 * celeron55 deletes line
23:13 VanessaE I'll say one last thing re: dyes and then I'll shut up about it forever:  you say I treat minetest like a paint program.  I say, you have apparently not been playing the game on public servers:  EVERYONE treats it that way.
23:13 VanessaE (and that's in "survival" mode, btw)
23:31 celeron55 minetest has no survival or creative mode currently
23:32 celeron55 regarding to what the words mean in my mind
23:55 VanessaE left #minetest-dev

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