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IRC log for #minetest-delta, 2012-07-23

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Time Nick Message
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02:00 spectator joined #minetest-delta
02:00 spectator tada! i'm back
02:01 VanessaE wb
02:02 spectator what do you think about terasology?
02:02 spectator is is another mc-like opensource project
02:02 spectator written in java
02:02 VanessaE not familar with it
02:03 VanessaE familiar*
02:03 spectator which is slower but IMHO more complete than MT
02:03 spectator https://github.com/MovingBlocks/Terasology
02:03 VanessaE eh, pass
02:04 * VanessaE does not like Java
02:05 spectator yeah me too because I was not able to play it on my computer where minetest works fine (not always)
02:06 spectator but graphics and content is better in that project
02:06 VanessaE graphics?  that's a texture pack issue.
02:06 VanessaE content?  there are tons of mods.
02:06 VanessaE next? :-)
02:07 spectator graphics = there are special effects which look awesome (but they should be slow)
02:07 spectator it is not possible to implement them with texture packs
02:07 VanessaE special effects such as......?
02:08 spectator 1) particles which appear when you break a node
02:08 VanessaE particles mod.
02:09 spectator 2) vignette effect
02:10 spectator 3) light from the sky makes "mountains" glow
02:10 spectator 4) plants move
02:10 NakedFury water
02:11 NakedFury 20 thousand times better
02:11 spectator watch this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13ha669K88I
02:11 VanessaE so raise some github issues about these
02:11 NakedFury shadows
02:11 spectator c55 wont do this, you know
02:12 VanessaE vignette should be fairly easy, just overlay the whole screen with an appropriate image
02:12 VanessaE moving plants:  see animated water/lava/torches.
02:12 VanessaE not sure what you mean by making the mountains glow
02:12 NakedFury its the lightning
02:14 NakedFury many of those things wont be added by c55 because they wont run on old pcs
02:15 spectator this is simply stupid
02:15 NakedFury what is?
02:15 spectator make the game look like shit only because it will not work on shitty computers
02:16 spectator add these features to config file so users with old computers (like me) will be able to turn these nice features off
02:16 VanessaE the game doesn't "look like shit"
02:16 NakedFury well if you can code in c++ and found a way to add those and more importantly found a way to make them on/off as wanted then c55 would add it for sure
02:16 spectator it does
02:17 VanessaE http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/​minetest/minetest-screenshot-vanessa512hd-1.png
02:17 VanessaE this looks like shit?
02:18 spectator it looks a little bit better but that is because you have used a custom texture pack
02:18 VanessaE indeed so.
02:18 VanessaE used -> made
02:19 spectator basically the problem is in the little details
02:19 VanessaE little details can be improved as long as they're not just stuff coming from minecraft
02:19 VanessaE they need to have merit on their own
02:19 spectator * basically^W actually
02:19 spectator GUI, font, the light, particles, etc
02:20 spectator all stuff like that should be in the minetest build
02:20 VanessaE but why 'should' it be is the question?
02:20 spectator so people will not have to collect mods from all over the place
02:20 VanessaE what would be improved versus leaving them as mods the user can download?
02:20 NakedFury it improves
02:20 VanessaE all over the place?  We have a central repository of a sort - the Mod Releases forum.
02:20 NakedFury everything
02:21 spectator mod forum is just stupid (sorry for talking like that, english is not my native language)
02:21 spectator it is not organized at all
02:21 VanessaE why?  it serves its purpose well
02:22 spectator if there would be a website for mods which is _made specifically for minetest_
02:22 VanessaE *facepalm*
02:22 spectator forum or blog engine works well only for blogs and forums but not for mods
02:24 spectator actually minetest web resources are not organized at all
02:24 spectator forum = does not work
02:24 spectator blog = c55's blog which is abandoned
02:24 VanessaE abandoned?
02:24 VanessaE um, no
02:24 VanessaE forum, works fine
02:25 spectator yep he writes a little in there
02:25 VanessaE forum link takes you to the main forums page as usual
02:25 VanessaE github link works, about, download, contribute (and -> dev wiki) all work
02:25 spectator hm.. it actually works...
02:26 VanessaE wiki works too
02:26 VanessaE the only one that doesn't "work" is the servers one, because it never got filled out
02:26 VanessaE and that's because servers come and go too frequently for c55 to waste his time on that
02:31 VanessaE now as for what you want added as default, you need to file issues on github - one issue per feature request
02:31 VanessaE but consider this:
02:31 VanessaE celeron55 said he will be "adding a lot of content" to the default game in the near future
02:31 VanessaE what that consists of, he wasn't clear (or I forgot).
02:32 VanessaE right now, what's important is making a kick-ass engine for all of that content to run on
02:32 spectator celeron55 said he will be "adding a lot of content" to the default game in the near future <-- i hope it will be something nice
02:32 VanessaE it will be stuff pulled from (or inspired by) the modding community.
02:32 VanessaE so get over to github and start filing some issues.
02:32 NakedFury kick ass engine needs lightning and particles
02:33 VanessaE particles is easy
02:33 VanessaE the particles mod handles that
02:33 spectator and about web resources (forums/blogs/website) - when I said that they are not organized  i meant that they are separated "places
02:34 spectator particles mod is not a solution
02:34 VanessaE why?  it works nicely
02:34 VanessaE I use it
02:35 spectator particles are effects which must be added by renderer
02:35 spectator which is written in  fast C++
02:35 spectator they must not be implemented in lua mods
02:36 VanessaE have you ever USED that mod?
02:36 VanessaE they seem plenty fast to me
02:36 NakedFury they have to be in source code
02:36 spectator you dont understand
02:36 VanessaE I've watched smoke rise from something like a thousand torches at once, without apparent slow downs
02:36 spectator visual  effects must be rendered by the renderer
02:36 VanessaE they ARE
02:37 VanessaE lua just moves the particles around, but they're still textures, so the rendering engine handles actually drawing them
02:37 VanessaE in the default mod, if I remember right, each "particle" is actually a 7x7 texture file with a single pixel of th desired color in the center.
02:38 VanessaE in my texture pack, each is 49x49 pixels and drawn to look like a cloud of pixels
02:38 spectator *facepalm* renderer must draw visual effects. lua mods should implement content (not visual effects!!!)
02:38 spectator i hope you will not suggest some lua mod for new lighting
02:39 VanessaE *double facepalm*
02:39 spectator and also mod which renders 3d scene differently
02:39 VanessaE lighting is best handled by the rendering engine, yes.
02:39 VanessaE self.object:setacceleration({x=0, y=0.5, z=0})
02:39 VanessaE
02:40 VanessaE ^^^ that's a game engine feature.
02:40 VanessaE lua is NOT moving the object.  the C++ code is.
02:40 spectator that looks like the mod is connected to... A PHYSICS ENGINE?!?!?
02:40 spectator WTF?!
02:40 VanessaE beats me how it works, but it's part of the minetest engine code.
02:41 spectator "setacceleration"???
02:41 VanessaE all of these use Minetest entities, moved using the setacceleration and setvelocity callbacks.
02:41 VanessaE (or are they functions?  I never can remember the difference)
02:42 VanessaE either way, the game engine handles that stuff, it's not like the lua code is sitting there iterating through every pixel the object moves
02:42 spectator particles are not objects - they do not interact with the game world - they are just a visual effect
02:42 VanessaE not here, they are actual objects.
02:42 VanessaE because that's the easiest way to handle the,
02:42 VanessaE them.
02:42 spectator and it is a good practice to draw visual effects in final, post-processing, steps of the renderer cycle
02:43 VanessaE now that said it's not like you can just click on them and grab them
02:44 spectator that is a slowest way (bad one) to handle them.
02:44 spectator but of course, it just works
02:44 VanessaE it works, and apparently quite well
02:45 spectator im quite surprised that c55 spends that much time for designing (not coding) the game an
02:45 VanessaE HUH!?
02:46 VanessaE https://github.com/celeron​55/minetest/commits/master
02:46 VanessaE um, c55 would disagree with you.
02:46 VanessaE note the date of the latest commit.  today.
02:46 spectator and after all that he allows this: visual effects implemented with a physics engine
02:46 spectator note the date of the latest commit.  today. <-- fix a "terrible grammar error in comment"
02:47 spectator it's => its
02:47 VanessaE ok, look at the commits before that then
02:47 VanessaE don't cherry pick
02:47 spectator "latest commit"
02:47 VanessaE especially yesterday's
02:47 spectator but i'm not talking about his commits
02:47 VanessaE what then?
02:48 spectator there was a gap between my two posts in this irc
02:48 spectator im quite surprised that c55 spends that much time for designing (not coding) the game and after all that he allows this: visual effects implemented with a physics engine
02:48 spectator ^^^ this is what i was talking about
02:48 VanessaE oh
02:49 VanessaE he codes what he feels is most relevant to getting the game into the state he wants - which is not a minecraft clone.
02:50 VanessaE and G*d I hope it never becomes one.
02:50 spectator well it is actually _his_ project so he can implement whatever features he wants to
02:50 spectator but that does not make a shitty implementation of features a good one
02:51 spectator which is not a minecraft clone <-- good idea, we dont need another minecraft because we already have one
02:52 VanessaE shitty in YOUR opinion
02:52 VanessaE to me, it's a fun game and that's the most important part.
02:54 spectator i look on this situation from programmer's point of view
02:54 spectator you are looking from player's POV
02:55 spectator so, yes, my opinion is that particles are implemented really bad
02:56 VanessaE yeah but the stuff you're asking for is really not that useful - it's all eye candy and no function
02:56 VanessaE I am looking at it from a coder's point of view.
02:56 NakedFury it is important
02:56 NakedFury the sooner it is done the better
02:56 * VanessaE <-- 25 years' worth of programming.
02:57 spectator wow
02:57 spectator that is a lot!
02:58 spectator organizing stuff is very important and c55 understands that
02:58 VanessaE it's enough anyway.
02:59 VanessaE I just don't do much with modern languages except bash and lua (and still learning those because I don't actually like modern languages :-) )
02:59 spectator but i was just surprised when he said nothing about THAT way of a visual effect implementation
02:59 VanessaE where'd you expect such to appear?
02:59 VanessaE if you don't file issues on github about these features, he won't comment on them.
02:59 spectator as i've already said, in renderer subsystem
03:00 VanessaE I meant the comments, not the code.
03:00 spectator i'm not going to to that because i know what will happen: he will call me an idiot
03:00 VanessaE not if you word your posts properly.
03:00 VanessaE give examples, use cases, clear reasoning
03:01 NakedFury no
03:01 NakedFury he will
03:01 VanessaE not so much anymore, I've been talking with him
03:01 VanessaE I'll pass your comments on to him.
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03:08 VanessaE also keep this in mind:
03:09 VanessaE the only machine c55 has that's any good for gaming, if I understand him correctly, is his laptop.
03:09 VanessaE so whatever he codes HAS to work on that.
03:16 NakedFury a good GUI works on any laptop
03:17 VanessaE only if the GUI uses only those features the laptop can handle.
03:17 VanessaE if a GUI or the game needs something a modern laptop can't handle, then the laptop either can't play the game or the feature has to be toned down
03:18 VanessaE either way it can't be tested then.
03:18 NakedFury the gui just needs textures we can change
03:18 VanessaE well the game is more than just its GUI
03:19 MiJyn NO! The reason why I play this game is because of it's GUI! Why else? :P
03:37 VanessaE zzz
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04:41 spectator ok bye
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10:27 Kray https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=51142 AUR package now 0.4.1
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11:57 EdB hello
11:57 VanessaE hi
11:58 EdB I would be intersed in some code contribution
11:58 EdB what is the best way to applies ?
11:58 VanessaE make a fork of minetest/minetest_game and start uploading changes to it
11:58 VanessaE one change/feature/fix per commit
11:59 VanessaE then create pull requests against celeron55's main branch.  he'll look at the changes, and if they're good, they may be incorporated.
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11:59 VanessaE the rest comes down to just reading through the code and trying to gain an understanding of it
12:00 EdB is there a list of welcomed change and the opposite .
12:00 VanessaE well there is the game's roadmap,
12:01 darkrose http://minetest.net/wiki/d​oku.php?id=roadmap:roadmap might help
12:01 VanessaE I'll get the link in a ....
12:01 VanessaE yeah, that ^^^^^
12:01 darkrose :p
12:01 VanessaE beyond that - don't try to implement changes that only serve to make the game more like minecraft
12:01 VanessaE instead, focus on stuff everyone is likely to use
12:01 VanessaE and make sure your changes are functional - that they do something useful in the context of the ga,e
12:01 VanessaE game*
12:02 EdB not my purpose i'm more a terraria player :o)
12:02 VanessaE good :-)
12:02 VanessaE too many people want to turn minetest into a straight clone of minecraft, which doesn't sit well with many of us
12:04 EdB ok
12:05 VanessaE one thing a lot of people have been wanting though is 3d mobs, but c55 wants any such code to be as flexible as possible
12:05 VanessaE and clean, and fast
12:06 VanessaE and able to run on his laptop :-)
12:06 VanessaE one thing I personally would like to see is faster game startup - when you have dozens of mods and huge textures, the extrude function that is run at startup takes forever
12:06 VanessaE (it should be done on demand instead)
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12:14 EdB reading minetest_game, it all look likes Lua.
12:14 Calinou because it is
12:14 EdB I'm more a C++ guy, that do the Lua binding
12:15 EdB (I already made one of my own :o) )
12:16 EdB sould I consider going directly througt minetest.git or does I've to start with minetest_game ?
12:16 EdB I guess I can do both
12:16 VanessaE the minetest_game part is all lua yeah
12:16 VanessaE the minetest part (sans _game) is the engine and is C++
12:16 Calinou has some lua; see the "builtin" folder
12:17 VanessaE well yeah some, but primarily C++
12:17 EdB I guess before been promoted to 'builtin', it have to go to minetest_game before
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12:20 VanessaE not sure how that works, but I *think* most stuff is being moved out of the engine and into minetest_game where practical
12:20 VanessaE and I think third-party stuff is expected to end up in there too
12:20 VanessaE doors did, for example
12:21 darkrose builtin is lower leve stuff, not related to gameplay, _game is actual game code
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15:09 EdB what does snamppy meens for a node ?
15:09 EdB snappy
15:10 EdB I got the english definition but doesn't figure it out in minetest context
15:11 EdB ok got it
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17:11 cosarara97 hello, I'm trying to draw a 2d image to the screen, but can't get it to work :( http://pastebin.com/bUcQ1qka
17:11 cosarara97 Can anyone help me?
17:11 jordach cosarara97, why not use a direct .png overlay
17:11 cosarara97 ?
17:11 jordach rather than some effects
17:12 jordach place it on top like a layer, (gimp wise)
17:12 cosarara97 Because I didn't know I could do that :)
17:12 jordach you can
17:12 jordach thats the thing
17:12 cosarara97 So how do I do that?
17:12 jordach there is more than one way to code a feature
17:18 cosarara97 Then how do I do the png overlay?
17:18 jordach thats your job
17:18 jordach im just saying, rather than a long and costly way
17:18 jordach try and make it simple
17:19 cosarara97 well, that's the way I found of doing it
17:19 cosarara97 I don't know much about either c++ or irrlicht
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17:20 spectator cosarara97, full code pleas
17:20 cosarara97 Well, that's inside game.cpp
17:20 spectator http://pastebin.com/bUcQ1qka <-- this one will not even compile
17:21 cosarara97 https://github.com/cosarara97/minetest
17:21 spectator https://github.com/cosarara97/mi​netest/blob/master/src/game.cpp ?
17:22 cosarara97 yes
17:22 spectator line 1740
17:22 cosarara97 yes
17:23 spectator and what do you want to do? some kind of binocular?
17:24 cosarara97 yep
17:25 cosarara97 I got it to zoom, but the eyehole doesn't appear
17:26 spectator hm
17:26 spectator did you test it on smaller textures
17:27 spectator it looks like you've called driver->draw2DImage() correctly
17:27 cosarara97 no, but I got it to appear in the place of hearts
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17:28 spectator yep i saw that you've modified hearts code
17:28 spectator on line 303 - driver->draw2DImage(heart_texture, rect, //...
17:29 cosarara97 huh?
17:29 spectator well it should work
17:29 spectator but for some reason it does not
17:29 cosarara97 I just tried putting the heart texture in place of the eyehole
17:29 spectator maybe it works for small textures only (hearts 16x16) because of some bug
17:30 cosarara97 it doesn't work either
17:31 spectator btw, is a eyehole.png texture at the same folder as heart.png?
17:31 cosarara97 yes
17:31 spectator hm...
17:31 cosarara97 in games/minimal/mods/default/textures
17:32 spectator try to replace heart.png texture with something else
17:32 cosarara97 If I don't put it, it says it'll generate a dummy image
17:32 spectator if hearts will not change in the game - it is the wrong folder
17:32 cosarara97 I replaced the heart.png with the eyehole, and it worked
17:32 cosarara97 But I don't want eyeholes in the place of hearts :)
17:33 spectator ok try to use heart texture instead of eyehole
17:33 spectator if your code is good
17:33 cosarara97 Already done
17:33 spectator you will see a giant heart
17:33 cosarara97 It doesn't work
17:34 cosarara97 There must be something wrong
17:34 cosarara97 I think it'll be something stupid
17:34 cosarara97 :/
17:36 spectator can you use guienv->addStaticText() to draw text?
17:36 spectator you might want to use it to indicate that texture is actually loaded
17:37 spectator after line 1751, where if condition ends, add else one and draw some text with it
17:37 spectator you will see this text if texture is not loaded
17:37 cosarara97 guienv->addStaticText("foo") ?
17:38 spectator no
17:39 spectator gui::IGUIStaticText *guitext = guienv->addStaticText(L"Minetest-c55", core::rect<s32>(x1, y1, x2, y2),false, false);
17:39 cosarara97 lol
17:39 cosarara97 ok
17:39 spectator replace x1, y1, x2, y2 with coordinates of the textbox
17:39 spectator and Minetest-c55 with the text
17:40 cosarara97 0,0,50,50 will do, right?
17:40 spectator not really
17:40 cosarara97 oh
17:40 spectator try to put it somewhere else
17:41 spectator the top left corner is already used
17:41 spectator by debug text
17:41 spectator which is drawn by the same function
17:41 cosarara97 50,50,100,100?
17:41 spectator yep
17:42 cosarara97 gui::IGUIStaticText *guitext = guienv->addStaticText(L"This is not loading", core::rect<s32>(50, 50, 100, 100),false, false);
17:42 spectator yep
17:42 spectator and if it will not work, try (font->getDimension(L"Random test string").Height + 50) for y2
17:42 cosarara97 /home/jaume/minetest/git/cosarara​97/minetest/src/game.cpp:1740:33: error: no matching function for call to ‘irr::gui::IGUIEnvironment::addStaticText(const char [6])’
17:43 spectator that means that you cannot use this function in there
17:43 cosarara97 Why?
17:44 spectator so i think that you simply wrote your code in the wrong place :)
17:44 spectator try to put whole block right after the hearts rendering code
17:44 cosarara97 oh
17:45 cosarara97 sorry, I hadn't removed the guienv->addStaticText("foo")
17:45 cosarara97 lol
17:45 cosarara97 well
17:45 cosarara97 no text
17:45 cosarara97 That means the texture is loading, right?
17:46 spectator yep
17:46 spectator and is it drawn on the screen
17:46 spectator ?
17:46 cosarara97 no
17:48 spectator ok try dump something into errorstream instead of writing a GUI text
17:48 spectator like that: { error_message = L"Texture does not work!"; errorstream<<wide_to_narrow​(error_message)<<std::endl; }
17:48 cosarara97 I tried putting another one of those addStaticText()'s inside the if
17:48 cosarara97 and it's working
17:50 spectator did you try to put the whole zoom if block after the hearts code?
17:50 cosarara97 no, I didn't
17:51 spectator lines 1738-1752 move between lines 322 and 323
17:51 spectator ^ sounds weird because english is not my native lang, but i hope you understood what i've meant
17:52 cosarara97 yes, yes, I'm doing it right now
17:52 cosarara97 And I'm catalan, so my native languages are catalan and spanish
17:55 cosarara97 Well, I get this putting it below the hearts code, because it can't check if the camera is zooming: game.cpp:323:5: error: ‘camera’ was not declared in this scope
17:56 spectator ok then try to separate texture drawing code from camera zooming
17:56 spectator so try to draw texture without any if conditions after hearts code
17:57 spectator if texture drawing stuff correctly, you will see your eyehole.png texture
17:57 spectator * works correctly
17:57 spectator and dont try to zoom the camera yet
17:58 cosarara97 wow
17:58 cosarara97 it's a giant heart
17:58 cosarara97 :)
18:00 cosarara97 Now I have to connect it with the zooming and make it resize with the screen
18:00 cosarara97 So why is it working here and not there?
18:00 spectator i think because some variables were not defined there
18:01 spectator like camera zooming does not work after hearts because 'camera' var was not defined
18:01 cosarara97 But that's different
18:01 cosarara97 because camera zooming does not even compile, after hearts
18:02 cosarara97 :S
18:02 spectator right, it will not because the camera is not kind of 'available' in that place
18:03 spectator that happens because 'camera' is defined in namespace/function/block to which hearts code part does not belong
18:04 spectator ok so did you replace the giant heart with eyehole texture?
18:04 cosarara97 yes
18:04 spectator and it works just as it should, right?
18:04 cosarara97 Yes
18:05 spectator camera zooms and eye texture is drawn?
18:05 cosarara97 yep
18:05 cosarara97 But the eyehole texture covers the menu
18:05 spectator yay :)
18:05 cosarara97 I'll have to somehow put it below
18:06 spectator that means that you should find a place in code where the gui is not drawn yet
18:06 spectator i think hearts are the part of the gui so you should put your code way before it
18:07 cosarara97 Heart's are in a function called draw_hotbar()
18:08 cosarara97 I think I should write draw_eyehole() :)
18:08 spectator yep try to draw texture before the place this function is called
18:08 spectator is is on the line 2827
18:08 spectator so you should put your code in there
18:09 spectator also, you dont want to put your code into if(showhud){} because eyehole texture will be not visible if player hides hud
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18:10 spectator try to put your texture code after line 2781, after wielded tool is drawn
18:13 cosarara97 yay!
18:13 cosarara97 Hey, thank you
18:14 cosarara97 I think I'll manage from here, but I have to go now
18:14 cosarara97 bye
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18:53 spectator cosarara97, you are welcome :)
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