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IRC log for #minetest-delta, 2012-07-21

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 MiJyn define high-quality?
00:01 MiJyn like in his terms
00:01 MiJyn because high-quality usually means a good base and engine
00:02 MiJyn and the code on top is, of course, well done
00:04 VanessaE businesslike, he said
00:05 VanessaE the sort of thing you would hire someome to do, pay for, and expect done in a short timeframe.
00:05 VanessaE that was his definition of high quality.
00:05 VanessaE I basically told him he's taking the concept way too far/seriously.
00:05 VanessaE see the current -dev log
00:05 VanessaE the conversation is long since over, but all of the text is there
00:05 MiJyn oh
00:05 MiJyn I see
00:06 VanessaE I relayed to him my experience with taking a hobby and turning it into a businesslike endeavor.
00:06 MiJyn so how would I code something that is like hiring someone to do with an engine like this?
00:06 VanessaE except in my case, I turned it in a business.
00:06 VanessaE and the end result?  I fucking hate what I created.
00:07 VanessaE hobby -> business -> crash.
00:07 MiJyn don't blame yourself
00:07 MiJyn it wasn't only you who turned it into a "business"
00:07 VanessaE I don't - I'm burned out, just as he is getting to.
00:08 VanessaE as for how you code it, that I dunno - my coding style is a bit different from most
00:10 MiJyn yeah
00:10 MiJyn that's why I'm quitting
00:11 VanessaE naw don't quit
00:12 VanessaE maybe with some time I can wear down that three piece suit back down to the ratty T-shirt that should be there.  ;-)
00:15 MiJyn well, I don't think c55 will change
00:16 MiJyn he's so insecure
00:16 MiJyn and to hide it, he tries to act tough and bossy etc...
00:16 VanessaE did you read the -dev log?
00:16 VanessaE it's all there
00:16 VanessaE the whole convo I had with him
00:17 VanessaE http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2012-07-20
00:17 VanessaE that's the majority of it (from just before I signed on today)
00:26 MiJyn holy cow
00:26 VanessaE ?
00:26 MiJyn if I even had ANY respect for celeron55, it is completely removed
00:27 MiJyn I'd guess it goes way down to negative
00:27 MiJyn "minetest is roughly half the size of Linux 1.0.0 in terms of lines of code, and uses three or four major technologies, while linux 1.0.0 is just plain old C and x86 assembly"
00:27 MiJyn ya
00:27 MiJyn so linux is way simpler because it doesn't use three or four major technologies?
00:27 MiJyn I'd say it's way more complex because it DOESN'T use them, and it does so much
00:28 MiJyn c55 could never code even the most basic kernel
00:28 VanessaE I think the intent there was to compare the complexity of the code as a whole, not the interaction between its various technologies.
00:28 MiJyn yeah
00:29 MiJyn if I can write the basics of minetest in pure OpenGL in 3 days, I think it is not that complex
00:29 MiJyn plus, I never programmed in OpenGL before
00:29 MiJyn and I didn't program in Java for a LONG time
00:29 VanessaE the problem isn't the basics or any one parts
00:29 VanessaE you have to consider the complete package.
00:29 VanessaE is minetest as complex as the linux kernel?  no.
00:30 VanessaE is it as complex as my old modplayer project from the C64?  infinitely moreso.
00:31 MiJyn the only part I had trouble on was something that he did not implement (something that irrlicht already did for him)
00:31 VanessaE yeah but you never got to the point of a game as capable as what exists now.
00:31 VanessaE that doesn't matter though
00:32 MiJyn yeah, I stopped after I couldn't implement that
00:32 MiJyn xD
00:32 MiJyn I'm just saying, this project is NOT complex
00:32 MiJyn there are thousands of projects more complex than this
00:32 VanessaE I think that's where his definition of "high quality" veers from yours.  If I interpret him correctly, you should be fired for not finishing - if it had been a paid job that is
00:33 MiJyn heck, nearly every popular linux 3D game is more complex  than this (even Cube)
00:33 MiJyn right, I see
00:34 MiJyn but it wasn't I who wanted to finish ;)
00:37 VanessaE at any rate..
00:37 VanessaE given his distaste for anything that would turn minetest into minecraft as it exists today, and your intent to do exactly that...
00:38 VanessaE I'm sure you can see the conflict here :-)
00:38 MiJyn what?
00:38 MiJyn our intent was to supercede minecraft ;)
00:38 VanessaE close enough
00:38 MiJyn so c55 is actually _releasing_ 0.4 today?
00:39 NakedFury the problem is that we have no clear clue on where he wants to take it while mijyn and gang wanted to complete bringin minecraft stuff in it
00:39 VanessaE don't split hairs (unless you're making hasenpfeffer)
00:39 VanessaE no, I doubt he intends to actually make a 0.4 release today
00:39 MiJyn ok *phew* :P
00:39 VanessaE I'm pretty sure that was him blowing off steam
00:40 MiJyn so he _wants_ to have the community help him, but he's too arrogant
00:41 VanessaE he wants the community to help, but he wants it done in a semi-professional manner
00:41 VanessaE which to my mind, is an unrealistic requirement
00:41 MiJyn yeah
00:41 MiJyn like: "do what I can't do"
00:41 MiJyn "and if not, your idea/code is terrible"
00:42 VanessaE heh
00:42 VanessaE if you read the log in detail I'm sure you'll see where I brought that up a couple of times :-0)
00:42 VanessaE :-)
00:49 MiJyn yep
00:49 MiJyn I read every line of it :)
00:57 MiJyn I hope he will take some of that advice
00:57 MiJyn it's good that someone questions his "authority" lol
00:57 VanessaE erk...
00:57 VanessaE https://github.com/celeron​55/minetest/commits/master
00:57 VanessaE he's gone and done it.
00:58 MiJyn ???
00:58 MiJyn ohz no
01:02 MiJyn "you shouldn't act when you are frustrated"
01:02 MiJyn he just did something like that
01:03 MiJyn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYzxMAyrEEM
03:06 cy1 VanessaE: you sound a trifle mad. perhaps celeron55 isn't taking the project seriously enough for your tastes?
03:06 VanessaE eh?
03:06 cy1 oh, sorry scrollback
03:07 VanessaE heh, me mad?  not at all :-)
03:12 * VanessaE looks at cy1 o.O
03:13 cy1 O.o
03:16 VanessaE zzz
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08:50 bookwar1 MiJyn: you forced me to check the logs for last two days, and I'd say this is the really stupid way you choose for both 1) raising the question at all and 2) arguing that the quality c55 asks for is "too much for a project like this". I don't want to go into details and I am not qualified to do such, just this logic is ugly. It doesn't matter if you do a hobby project or a business one, you should do it with the highest quality possible. That's th
08:50 bookwar1 You could have argue about, if the work you did have such a quality, that's the different question. But not about the principle itself.
08:54 Calinou MiJyn, welcome to my club
08:54 bookwar1 And also I am kindly ask everybody to avoid the discussion about anyone's personal life and "attitude" during arguing of any kind. If you want any problem to be solved, focus on the technical side, please.
08:54 Calinou also: why not fork the game?
08:54 Calinou if you haven't already
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14:37 MiJyn <bookwar1> MiJyn: you forced me to check the logs for last two days, and I'd say this is the really stupid way you choose for both 1) raising the question at all and 2) arguing that the quality c55 asks for is "too much for a project like this". I don't want to go into details and I am not qualified to do such, just this logic is ugly. It doesn't matter if you do a hobby project or a business one, you should do it with the highest quality possibl
14:37 MiJyn e. That's th
14:37 MiJyn so... WHICH question?
14:38 MiJyn The one about Lugaru?
14:38 MiJyn Who wouldn't?
14:38 MiJyn I wanted to understand
14:38 MiJyn you have something against that??
14:38 jordach autisms a bitch, deal with it
14:38 jordach (likewise for me too.)
14:39 MiJyn yep
14:39 MiJyn I'm less autistic, but more OSD
14:39 jordach duh
14:39 MiJyn ?
14:39 jordach guess what
14:39 jordach celeron decided to commit an anit speedhack
14:40 MiJyn lol
14:40 MiJyn just as I told him to!
14:40 jordach ha
14:40 jordach and with anti-blockbreaking
14:42 Calinou c<jordach> celeron decided to commit an anit speedhack
14:43 Calinou the antispeedhack was added in december 2011
14:43 Calinou the anti-unbreakable-block-breaking hack was added recently
14:43 Calinou fortuantely
14:43 Calinou MiJyn, OSD?
14:43 Calinou on-screen display? :P
14:43 MiJyn oh
14:43 MiJyn sorry,
14:43 MiJyn OCD
14:43 MiJyn lol
14:43 MiJyn I get those 2 mixed up
14:43 jordach more than normal
14:43 * Calinou just did a contrib to minetest
14:43 Calinou a commit to my fork got merged :D
14:44 MiJyn extra trolling? :P
14:44 Calinou :}
14:44 jordach no
14:44 jordach general lua fixes
14:44 VanessaE I've created a monster. :-)
14:44 Calinou and c++
14:44 Calinou VanessaE, inb4 lua fanboy
14:44 jordach monster vanessa?
14:45 Calinou seriously; if one is going to create mobs, create a mob SYSTEM in C++, then add API stuff in LUA, that's how it works
14:45 VanessaE go look at #minetest-dev logs for last night (up to about 0500 GMT this morning)
14:45 Calinou else c55 will never add mobs
14:45 Calinou the AI part of mobs needs to be in C++ for speed
14:46 VanessaE I hate when he does that.
14:52 jin_xi who does what?
14:53 VanessaE when cal just suddenly signs off, conection reset, without so much as a 'bbl'
14:53 jin_xi oh that. well who knows what happened
14:54 VanessaE jin_xi: finally decided to stick with one nick now? ;-)
14:54 jin_xi there is some evil interaction between emacs and minetest. had TONS of crashes
14:54 VanessaE so use a better OS ;-)
14:54 jin_xi Vanessa: its just, soo many nicks alread
14:54 jin_xi y
14:55 jin_xi i use fedora here, first and last time i install this crap
14:55 VanessaE emacs, being so extensible and capable now, the joke is that "Emacs is a great operating system.  All it lacks now is a good text editor."
14:56 jin_xi but will try to remember to set my nick around here
14:56 jin_xi i like emacs
14:56 Fixer_ https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/commi​t/b0ba05c9ac021032801952ff1220ed4ab1b1bd45
14:56 bookwar jin_xi: hey, fedora is the best os ever :)
14:56 jin_xi i think it is the proper way to do complex software
14:56 VanessaE Xubuntu 12.04 works well for me, btw
14:56 Fixer_ finally!
14:57 MiJyn nah, why Xubuntu?
14:57 bookwar tell me please, is it really the official stable release i can package now?
14:57 jin_xi bookwar: my experience is different, and i find it terribly bloated and resource hungry
14:57 MiJyn why not slackware?
14:57 MiJyn bookwar, yes, an official release, but you can remove "stable"
14:57 bookwar jin_xi: that's not the problem of OS, that's the problem of how you set it up )
14:58 jin_xi true dat, i normally use gentoo.
14:58 jin_xi but i tried a standard fedora setup for a change.
14:58 bookwar MiJyn: the word "stable" doesn't mean bug-free, it means stable in api at least, so updates to this release will not erase the map of the currently exisiting world at least
15:00 bookwar jin_xi: gentoo-users tend to brake fedora installation from the very beginning, "let me erase systemd, pulseaudio and consolekit.."
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15:01 Fixer_ just use debian
15:03 Fixer_ Kray: your server is 0.4 now?
15:04 VanessaE back.
15:04 VanessaE why xubuntu?  easy to use, fairly lean.  Doesn't break too often.
15:04 VanessaE at least for me
15:06 jordach VanessaE, me neither#
15:07 jin_xi no, i just let it do its thing... and yes, pulseaudio is one of the things i dont like
15:07 jordach pulseaudio is crap when used with wine
15:07 VanessaE the thing I hate about pulseaudio is it interferes with direct control of my mixer settings.
15:07 VanessaE other that that, I don't have much issue with it anymore.
15:07 jordach ikr
15:08 Kray Fixer_: not yet
15:10 jordach cmon Kray
15:10 Kray too busy playing eve
15:10 jordach do it
15:10 jordach >.<
15:12 Kray eve online is more important
15:13 jordach /kick kray Eve_online
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19:17 Fixer_ please warn as after kray's server update to 0.4
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21:03 VanessaE windows users:  https://github.com/downloads/celeron​55/minetest/minetest-0.4.1-win32.zip
21:03 VanessaE c55 needs feedback
21:04 Fixer_ what the problem?
21:05 VanessaE no problem - does it work okay?
21:05 VanessaE (I don't use windows, so can't test that build)
21:05 Fixer_ i will test shortly
21:06 sfan5 VanessaE: wine?
21:07 VanessaE I don't consider wine to be good enough for testing something and actually reporting the results
21:07 Fixer_ it is running for me
21:07 VanessaE (never know what might be skewed by differences in wine's implementation of the windows spec)
21:08 Fixer_ you use some linux distrib?
21:09 VanessaE I use Xubuntu 12.04
21:12 Fixer_ ok, it is running on win xp
21:13 Fixer_ not worse than 0.4.0
21:17 Fixer_ VanessaE: btw celeron moved again to another irc?
21:17 VanessaE yes
21:17 VanessaE well sorta
21:17 VanessaE more like limiting himself to one specific channel, which must not have any non-core-development-related chat.
21:21 Fixer_ Q: if i minimize minetest to tray - it keeps using 50% of cpu, can it be suspended in some friendly way to eat less cpu/video power when minimized?
21:31 VanessaE dunno
21:33 VanessaE I mean, surely it can be
21:33 VanessaE on linux you can suspend almost anything
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