| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:01 |
MiJyn |
define high-quality? |
| 00:01 |
MiJyn |
like in his terms |
| 00:01 |
MiJyn |
because high-quality usually means a good base and engine |
| 00:02 |
MiJyn |
and the code on top is, of course, well done |
| 00:04 |
VanessaE |
businesslike, he said |
| 00:05 |
VanessaE |
the sort of thing you would hire someome to do, pay for, and expect done in a short timeframe. |
| 00:05 |
VanessaE |
that was his definition of high quality. |
| 00:05 |
VanessaE |
I basically told him he's taking the concept way too far/seriously. |
| 00:05 |
VanessaE |
see the current -dev log |
| 00:05 |
VanessaE |
the conversation is long since over, but all of the text is there |
| 00:05 |
MiJyn |
oh |
| 00:05 |
MiJyn |
I see |
| 00:06 |
VanessaE |
I relayed to him my experience with taking a hobby and turning it into a businesslike endeavor. |
| 00:06 |
MiJyn |
so how would I code something that is like hiring someone to do with an engine like this? |
| 00:06 |
VanessaE |
except in my case, I turned it in a business. |
| 00:06 |
VanessaE |
and the end result? I fucking hate what I created. |
| 00:07 |
VanessaE |
hobby -> business -> crash. |
| 00:07 |
MiJyn |
don't blame yourself |
| 00:07 |
MiJyn |
it wasn't only you who turned it into a "business" |
| 00:07 |
VanessaE |
I don't - I'm burned out, just as he is getting to. |
| 00:08 |
VanessaE |
as for how you code it, that I dunno - my coding style is a bit different from most |
| 00:10 |
MiJyn |
yeah |
| 00:10 |
MiJyn |
that's why I'm quitting |
| 00:11 |
VanessaE |
naw don't quit |
| 00:12 |
VanessaE |
maybe with some time I can wear down that three piece suit back down to the ratty T-shirt that should be there. ;-) |
| 00:15 |
MiJyn |
well, I don't think c55 will change |
| 00:16 |
MiJyn |
he's so insecure |
| 00:16 |
MiJyn |
and to hide it, he tries to act tough and bossy etc... |
| 00:16 |
VanessaE |
did you read the -dev log? |
| 00:16 |
VanessaE |
it's all there |
| 00:16 |
VanessaE |
the whole convo I had with him |
| 00:17 |
VanessaE |
http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2012-07-20 |
| 00:17 |
VanessaE |
that's the majority of it (from just before I signed on today) |
| 00:26 |
MiJyn |
holy cow |
| 00:26 |
VanessaE |
? |
| 00:26 |
MiJyn |
if I even had ANY respect for celeron55, it is completely removed |
| 00:27 |
MiJyn |
I'd guess it goes way down to negative |
| 00:27 |
MiJyn |
"minetest is roughly half the size of Linux 1.0.0 in terms of lines of code, and uses three or four major technologies, while linux 1.0.0 is just plain old C and x86 assembly" |
| 00:27 |
MiJyn |
ya |
| 00:27 |
MiJyn |
so linux is way simpler because it doesn't use three or four major technologies? |
| 00:27 |
MiJyn |
I'd say it's way more complex because it DOESN'T use them, and it does so much |
| 00:28 |
MiJyn |
c55 could never code even the most basic kernel |
| 00:28 |
VanessaE |
I think the intent there was to compare the complexity of the code as a whole, not the interaction between its various technologies. |
| 00:28 |
MiJyn |
yeah |
| 00:29 |
MiJyn |
if I can write the basics of minetest in pure OpenGL in 3 days, I think it is not that complex |
| 00:29 |
MiJyn |
plus, I never programmed in OpenGL before |
| 00:29 |
MiJyn |
and I didn't program in Java for a LONG time |
| 00:29 |
VanessaE |
the problem isn't the basics or any one parts |
| 00:29 |
VanessaE |
you have to consider the complete package. |
| 00:29 |
VanessaE |
is minetest as complex as the linux kernel? no. |
| 00:30 |
VanessaE |
is it as complex as my old modplayer project from the C64? infinitely moreso. |
| 00:31 |
MiJyn |
the only part I had trouble on was something that he did not implement (something that irrlicht already did for him) |
| 00:31 |
VanessaE |
yeah but you never got to the point of a game as capable as what exists now. |
| 00:31 |
VanessaE |
that doesn't matter though |
| 00:32 |
MiJyn |
yeah, I stopped after I couldn't implement that |
| 00:32 |
MiJyn |
xD |
| 00:32 |
MiJyn |
I'm just saying, this project is NOT complex |
| 00:32 |
MiJyn |
there are thousands of projects more complex than this |
| 00:32 |
VanessaE |
I think that's where his definition of "high quality" veers from yours. If I interpret him correctly, you should be fired for not finishing - if it had been a paid job that is |
| 00:33 |
MiJyn |
heck, nearly every popular linux 3D game is more complex than this (even Cube) |
| 00:33 |
MiJyn |
right, I see |
| 00:34 |
MiJyn |
but it wasn't I who wanted to finish ;) |
| 00:37 |
VanessaE |
at any rate.. |
| 00:37 |
VanessaE |
given his distaste for anything that would turn minetest into minecraft as it exists today, and your intent to do exactly that... |
| 00:38 |
VanessaE |
I'm sure you can see the conflict here :-) |
| 00:38 |
MiJyn |
what? |
| 00:38 |
MiJyn |
our intent was to supercede minecraft ;) |
| 00:38 |
VanessaE |
close enough |
| 00:38 |
MiJyn |
so c55 is actually _releasing_ 0.4 today? |
| 00:39 |
NakedFury |
the problem is that we have no clear clue on where he wants to take it while mijyn and gang wanted to complete bringin minecraft stuff in it |
| 00:39 |
VanessaE |
don't split hairs (unless you're making hasenpfeffer) |
| 00:39 |
VanessaE |
no, I doubt he intends to actually make a 0.4 release today |
| 00:39 |
MiJyn |
ok *phew* :P |
| 00:39 |
VanessaE |
I'm pretty sure that was him blowing off steam |
| 00:40 |
MiJyn |
so he _wants_ to have the community help him, but he's too arrogant |
| 00:41 |
VanessaE |
he wants the community to help, but he wants it done in a semi-professional manner |
| 00:41 |
VanessaE |
which to my mind, is an unrealistic requirement |
| 00:41 |
MiJyn |
yeah |
| 00:41 |
MiJyn |
like: "do what I can't do" |
| 00:41 |
MiJyn |
"and if not, your idea/code is terrible" |
| 00:42 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 00:42 |
VanessaE |
if you read the log in detail I'm sure you'll see where I brought that up a couple of times :-0) |
| 00:42 |
VanessaE |
:-) |
| 00:49 |
MiJyn |
yep |
| 00:49 |
MiJyn |
I read every line of it :) |
| 00:57 |
MiJyn |
I hope he will take some of that advice |
| 00:57 |
MiJyn |
it's good that someone questions his "authority" lol |
| 00:57 |
VanessaE |
erk... |
| 00:57 |
VanessaE |
https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/commits/master |
| 00:57 |
VanessaE |
he's gone and done it. |
| 00:58 |
MiJyn |
??? |
| 00:58 |
MiJyn |
ohz no |
| 01:02 |
MiJyn |
"you shouldn't act when you are frustrated" |
| 01:02 |
MiJyn |
he just did something like that |
| 01:03 |
MiJyn |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYzxMAyrEEM |
| 03:06 |
cy1 |
VanessaE: you sound a trifle mad. perhaps celeron55 isn't taking the project seriously enough for your tastes? |
| 03:06 |
VanessaE |
eh? |
| 03:06 |
cy1 |
oh, sorry scrollback |
| 03:07 |
VanessaE |
heh, me mad? not at all :-) |
| 03:12 |
* VanessaE |
looks at cy1 o.O |
| 03:13 |
cy1 |
O.o |
| 03:16 |
VanessaE |
zzz |
| 06:21 |
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| 06:27 |
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| 06:29 |
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| 08:07 |
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| 08:25 |
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| 08:50 |
bookwar1 |
MiJyn: you forced me to check the logs for last two days, and I'd say this is the really stupid way you choose for both 1) raising the question at all and 2) arguing that the quality c55 asks for is "too much for a project like this". I don't want to go into details and I am not qualified to do such, just this logic is ugly. It doesn't matter if you do a hobby project or a business one, you should do it with the highest quality possible. That's th |
| 08:50 |
bookwar1 |
You could have argue about, if the work you did have such a quality, that's the different question. But not about the principle itself. |
| 08:54 |
Calinou |
MiJyn, welcome to my club |
| 08:54 |
bookwar1 |
And also I am kindly ask everybody to avoid the discussion about anyone's personal life and "attitude" during arguing of any kind. If you want any problem to be solved, focus on the technical side, please. |
| 08:54 |
Calinou |
also: why not fork the game? |
| 08:54 |
Calinou |
if you haven't already |
| 09:16 |
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| 09:27 |
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| 09:59 |
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| 10:12 |
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| 10:34 |
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| 10:37 |
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| 10:57 |
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| 10:58 |
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| 11:34 |
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| 13:10 |
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| 13:31 |
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| 14:07 |
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| 14:37 |
MiJyn |
<bookwar1> MiJyn: you forced me to check the logs for last two days, and I'd say this is the really stupid way you choose for both 1) raising the question at all and 2) arguing that the quality c55 asks for is "too much for a project like this". I don't want to go into details and I am not qualified to do such, just this logic is ugly. It doesn't matter if you do a hobby project or a business one, you should do it with the highest quality possibl |
| 14:37 |
MiJyn |
e. That's th |
| 14:37 |
MiJyn |
so... WHICH question? |
| 14:38 |
MiJyn |
The one about Lugaru? |
| 14:38 |
MiJyn |
Who wouldn't? |
| 14:38 |
MiJyn |
I wanted to understand |
| 14:38 |
MiJyn |
you have something against that?? |
| 14:38 |
jordach |
autisms a bitch, deal with it |
| 14:38 |
jordach |
(likewise for me too.) |
| 14:39 |
MiJyn |
yep |
| 14:39 |
MiJyn |
I'm less autistic, but more OSD |
| 14:39 |
jordach |
duh |
| 14:39 |
MiJyn |
? |
| 14:39 |
jordach |
guess what |
| 14:39 |
jordach |
celeron decided to commit an anit speedhack |
| 14:40 |
MiJyn |
lol |
| 14:40 |
MiJyn |
just as I told him to! |
| 14:40 |
jordach |
ha |
| 14:40 |
jordach |
and with anti-blockbreaking |
| 14:42 |
Calinou |
c<jordach> celeron decided to commit an anit speedhack |
| 14:43 |
Calinou |
the antispeedhack was added in december 2011 |
| 14:43 |
Calinou |
the anti-unbreakable-block-breaking hack was added recently |
| 14:43 |
Calinou |
fortuantely |
| 14:43 |
Calinou |
MiJyn, OSD? |
| 14:43 |
Calinou |
on-screen display? :P |
| 14:43 |
MiJyn |
oh |
| 14:43 |
MiJyn |
sorry, |
| 14:43 |
MiJyn |
OCD |
| 14:43 |
MiJyn |
lol |
| 14:43 |
MiJyn |
I get those 2 mixed up |
| 14:43 |
jordach |
more than normal |
| 14:43 |
* Calinou |
just did a contrib to minetest |
| 14:43 |
Calinou |
a commit to my fork got merged :D |
| 14:44 |
MiJyn |
extra trolling? :P |
| 14:44 |
Calinou |
:} |
| 14:44 |
jordach |
no |
| 14:44 |
jordach |
general lua fixes |
| 14:44 |
VanessaE |
I've created a monster. :-) |
| 14:44 |
Calinou |
and c++ |
| 14:44 |
Calinou |
VanessaE, inb4 lua fanboy |
| 14:44 |
jordach |
monster vanessa? |
| 14:45 |
Calinou |
seriously; if one is going to create mobs, create a mob SYSTEM in C++, then add API stuff in LUA, that's how it works |
| 14:45 |
VanessaE |
go look at #minetest-dev logs for last night (up to about 0500 GMT this morning) |
| 14:45 |
Calinou |
else c55 will never add mobs |
| 14:45 |
Calinou |
the AI part of mobs needs to be in C++ for speed |
| 14:46 |
VanessaE |
I hate when he does that. |
| 14:52 |
jin_xi |
who does what? |
| 14:53 |
VanessaE |
when cal just suddenly signs off, conection reset, without so much as a 'bbl' |
| 14:53 |
jin_xi |
oh that. well who knows what happened |
| 14:54 |
VanessaE |
jin_xi: finally decided to stick with one nick now? ;-) |
| 14:54 |
jin_xi |
there is some evil interaction between emacs and minetest. had TONS of crashes |
| 14:54 |
VanessaE |
so use a better OS ;-) |
| 14:54 |
jin_xi |
Vanessa: its just, soo many nicks alread |
| 14:54 |
jin_xi |
y |
| 14:55 |
jin_xi |
i use fedora here, first and last time i install this crap |
| 14:55 |
VanessaE |
emacs, being so extensible and capable now, the joke is that "Emacs is a great operating system. All it lacks now is a good text editor." |
| 14:56 |
jin_xi |
but will try to remember to set my nick around here |
| 14:56 |
jin_xi |
i like emacs |
| 14:56 |
Fixer_ |
https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/commit/b0ba05c9ac021032801952ff1220ed4ab1b1bd45 |
| 14:56 |
bookwar |
jin_xi: hey, fedora is the best os ever :) |
| 14:56 |
jin_xi |
i think it is the proper way to do complex software |
| 14:56 |
VanessaE |
Xubuntu 12.04 works well for me, btw |
| 14:56 |
Fixer_ |
finally! |
| 14:57 |
MiJyn |
nah, why Xubuntu? |
| 14:57 |
bookwar |
tell me please, is it really the official stable release i can package now? |
| 14:57 |
jin_xi |
bookwar: my experience is different, and i find it terribly bloated and resource hungry |
| 14:57 |
MiJyn |
why not slackware? |
| 14:57 |
MiJyn |
bookwar, yes, an official release, but you can remove "stable" |
| 14:57 |
bookwar |
jin_xi: that's not the problem of OS, that's the problem of how you set it up ) |
| 14:58 |
jin_xi |
true dat, i normally use gentoo. |
| 14:58 |
jin_xi |
but i tried a standard fedora setup for a change. |
| 14:58 |
bookwar |
MiJyn: the word "stable" doesn't mean bug-free, it means stable in api at least, so updates to this release will not erase the map of the currently exisiting world at least |
| 15:00 |
bookwar |
jin_xi: gentoo-users tend to brake fedora installation from the very beginning, "let me erase systemd, pulseaudio and consolekit.." |
| 15:01 |
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| 15:01 |
Fixer_ |
just use debian |
| 15:03 |
Fixer_ |
Kray: your server is 0.4 now? |
| 15:04 |
VanessaE |
back. |
| 15:04 |
VanessaE |
why xubuntu? easy to use, fairly lean. Doesn't break too often. |
| 15:04 |
VanessaE |
at least for me |
| 15:06 |
jordach |
VanessaE, me neither# |
| 15:07 |
jin_xi |
no, i just let it do its thing... and yes, pulseaudio is one of the things i dont like |
| 15:07 |
jordach |
pulseaudio is crap when used with wine |
| 15:07 |
VanessaE |
the thing I hate about pulseaudio is it interferes with direct control of my mixer settings. |
| 15:07 |
VanessaE |
other that that, I don't have much issue with it anymore. |
| 15:07 |
jordach |
ikr |
| 15:08 |
Kray |
Fixer_: not yet |
| 15:10 |
jordach |
cmon Kray |
| 15:10 |
Kray |
too busy playing eve |
| 15:10 |
jordach |
do it |
| 15:10 |
jordach |
>.< |
| 15:12 |
Kray |
eve online is more important |
| 15:13 |
jordach |
/kick kray Eve_online |
| 15:16 |
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| 19:17 |
Fixer_ |
please warn as after kray's server update to 0.4 |
| 19:36 |
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| 21:03 |
VanessaE |
windows users: https://github.com/downloads/celeron55/minetest/minetest-0.4.1-win32.zip |
| 21:03 |
VanessaE |
c55 needs feedback |
| 21:04 |
Fixer_ |
what the problem? |
| 21:05 |
VanessaE |
no problem - does it work okay? |
| 21:05 |
VanessaE |
(I don't use windows, so can't test that build) |
| 21:05 |
Fixer_ |
i will test shortly |
| 21:06 |
sfan5 |
VanessaE: wine? |
| 21:07 |
VanessaE |
I don't consider wine to be good enough for testing something and actually reporting the results |
| 21:07 |
Fixer_ |
it is running for me |
| 21:07 |
VanessaE |
(never know what might be skewed by differences in wine's implementation of the windows spec) |
| 21:08 |
Fixer_ |
you use some linux distrib? |
| 21:09 |
VanessaE |
I use Xubuntu 12.04 |
| 21:12 |
Fixer_ |
ok, it is running on win xp |
| 21:13 |
Fixer_ |
not worse than 0.4.0 |
| 21:17 |
Fixer_ |
VanessaE: btw celeron moved again to another irc? |
| 21:17 |
VanessaE |
yes |
| 21:17 |
VanessaE |
well sorta |
| 21:17 |
VanessaE |
more like limiting himself to one specific channel, which must not have any non-core-development-related chat. |
| 21:21 |
Fixer_ |
Q: if i minimize minetest to tray - it keeps using 50% of cpu, can it be suspended in some friendly way to eat less cpu/video power when minimized? |
| 21:31 |
VanessaE |
dunno |
| 21:33 |
VanessaE |
I mean, surely it can be |
| 21:33 |
VanessaE |
on linux you can suspend almost anything |
| 23:14 |
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